Welcome back to the Warbreaker reread! Last week Siri, Lightsong, and Blushweaver reacted to the priests debate over the merits of going to war with Idris. This week, Vivenna considers the same, until she’s forced to deal with the matter from… a different perspective.
This reread will contain spoilers for all of Warbreaker and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. This is particularly likely to include Words of Radiance, due to certain crossover characters. The index for this reread can be found here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 17
Point of View: Vivenna
Setting: T’Telir streets and Lemex’s home
Timing: Immediately following Chapter 16 (Vivenna’s second day in T’Telir)
Take a Deep Breath
Vivenna makes her way back from the Court of Gods to Lemex’s residence, reflecting on the probability of war and the things she thought she knew. All of it gives her a much deeper understanding of her own inability to even cope with it all, much less influence it. Approaching the house, it looks like there’s been an attack, but it turns out to merely be the effects of Denth and Tonk Fah doing a very thorough “search.”
Their finds are collected on the remains of Lemex’s desk for Vivenna’s perusal; sorting and reading the papers leave her shocked to her core. Not only did her father know about Lemex’s Breath, he intentionally paid for some of it (though he probably didn’t know just how much Lemex had acquired). Not only did her father know that Hallandren was most likely going to war with Idris, he deliberately sent Siri in Vivenna’s place because he knew that she would become a hostage that he could not ransom. Everything she thought she knew about her father and about the world is now in question.
Determining finally to serve her people in the best way she can under the circumstances, she returns to the mercenaries to develop a plan. Denth acknowledges that he knows some of the things Lemex had in the works, and can piece together more. It won’t necessarily be easy, but she has a team of expensive specialists to put it together. In the meantime, they prepare to move to a new location the following day.
Breathtaking
My friend, I must admit a weakness in myself. I will never be able to send Vivenna to be a hostage in that dragon’s nest of a city. To send her would be to kill her, and I cannot do that. Even though I know it would be best for Idris if I did.
Well. There it is, yet again. Except this time, Vivenna is getting the straight truth from Dedelin, with no sugar-coating or rationalization: her father sent Siri in her place, because he expected that the princess he sent would go to her death. I shudder to even imagine how that would feel.
Local Color
In the annotations for Chapter 17, Sanderson expresses some frustration that we’re this far into the book and still haven’t met Jewels, the third member of the mercenary crew. However, given that this is only Vivenna’s second day in T’Telir, she would certainly not be ready to handle a Drab, much less the … fourth member. Introducing this complication and having Vivenna even pretend to continue to work with the mercenaries at this point would stretch believability a bit too far.
The other discussion is one that has come up repeatedly, and will continue to do so. Was Dedelin right or wrong to give Lemex money to buy Breath? Was he right to set aside his principles for the sake of saving his country? How do you determine right and wrong, when the good of your nation seems to require that you do something evil? It’s easy for us to “answer” that the Idrians are wrong about the magic, it’s neutral rather than evil, so of course it was right for Dedelin to buy the Breath. But that doesn’t answer the question… Should he have supported what he believed to be evil, for the “greater good” of his people? It’s not a problem we’re going to resolve here, of course, but it’s one worth considering.
Snow White and Rose Red
One of the reasons I keep on tracking the timeline is that it helps make sense of a character’s reactions. In this case, the reminder that this is only Vivenna’s second day in T’Telir is making a big difference, for me at least, in accepting her attitudes toward… well, everything, really. Siri has been in T’Telir for a week now (and of course she started out with a different personality and different tastes), but all this just hit Vivenna yesterday. Plus, unlike Siri, she is exposed to the full City Experience—colors, smells, noise, strangers, crowds of strangers—and she’s on foot with but one trusted companion. So… yeah. I can empathize with Vivenna much more when I think in terms of her timeline.
That said, she’s come a long way in a short time:
Only one day in T’Telir, and already she knew that her training and tutorials hadn’t prepared her half as well as she’d assumed.
She felt as if she knew nothing. And that left her feeling very lost. She was not the confident, competent woman she’d assumed herself to be. The frightening truth was, should she have been sent to become the God King’s bride, she would have been nearly as ineffective and confused as poor Siri undoubtedly was.
Simply realizing that much is a huge step forward, though I’m sure for her it feels like a step backward. (Okay, so the assumption about Siri is still a little annoying, but I have to admit that so far, Siri really has been pretty much “ineffective and confused.”) Vivenna has a lot farther to fall, still, and it’s going to be painful, but this is a step toward growth.
Of course, just the city and the war-drums in the Assembly aren’t the only things Vivenna has to deal with in this chapter. As noted in Breathtaking, this is the first time she’s confronted with some unequivocal and unpalatable facts about her father/king. How do you deal with the realization that your father condemned your sister to (what he assumed was) death in your place, because he loved you more than he loved her? As if that’s not enough, how do you deal with the realization that your father paid for his agent to do something you’ve always been taught was an evil, horrible wickedness? And that both things were because, as king, he would do almost anything to protect his people?
It’s actually a testimony to Vivenna’s strength of character, I think, that in the face of these revelations, she decides to move forward with what she believes will be best for her people. As Sanderson notes in the annotations, she failed this test the first time—she was ready to die for Idris, but not to live for Idris. Rather than staying home to help lead her people in the trouble coming upon them, she ran off to attempt something far beyond her powers to accomplish. Now, with brutal reality staring her in the face, she is at least determined to proceed with the plans her father had supported, since his original agent is no longer functional.
In Living Color
Denth is succeeding in his manipulations of Vivenna, leading her to trust him and Tonk Fah in a fashion that will turn out to have been a very, very bad idea. Then again, the first time through (without annotations), I believed him, too. He’s been very, very clever.
Vivenna didn’t move. She was increasingly uncertain of her purpose in the city. Yet she still had Denth and Tonk Fah, and—surprisingly—she was finding herself growing attached to them. How many soldiers in her father’s army—good men, all of them—would have been able to resist running off with five thousand marks? There was more to these mercenaries than they let on.
That’s certainly an understatement. There’s a whole lot more to them… and not much of it is good. At least, not good for Vivenna.
Don’t Hold Your Breath (Give it to me!)
This is just a quick observation, that Vivenna walks past one of the D’Denir statues on her way—which, of course, we don’t know is Significant at this point.
Exhale
I really like the contrasts in this chapter. Vivenna starts out worrying about the debate she just heard, her own situation, and that of her sister. At the same time, she’s enjoying the walk down a quiet, pleasant street, with Parlin occasionally stopping to examine the lush and beautiful landscaping. That makes it more of a shock to arrive at Lemex’s house to find the splintered door half off its hinges—and then Denth pokes his head out and chuckles at her alarm. Just as she begins to see a bit of humor in their excessively thorough search, she’s left to go through a stack of papers that reveal not only the danger to her homeland, but the depths to which her father and his agent have sunk in trying to protect it. The knowledge brings her to tears, but it also moves her to realize the desperation behind it. In a final twist, after stating her determination to move forward and preparing to be forceful about it, Denth surprises her by his immediate cooperation and assistance. While this kind of abrupt back-and-forth could be badly done, in this case I believe it serves very well to place the reader in a mindset that reflects a little of Vivenna’s own unsettled state.
That’s it for the blog—now it’s time for the comments! Join us again next week, when we will cover Chapter 18, in which Siri takes a new approach to her evening routine, and Lightsong plays sick.
Alice Arneson is a SAHM, blogger, beta reader, and literature fan. As she’s noted in previous weeks, the Oathbringer beta read is proceeding, slightly behind the original optimistic schedule but still in good shape; she’s probably working on Part 3 as you read. Once that beta is finished, she hopes to step up the pace of this reread, so as to allow time for an Edgedancer reread before November.
Sanderson pulls off one hell of a dance with tone in this book, and the back in forth tones of this chapter reinforcing Vivenna’s state is something he does switching between Siri and Vivenna’s POV’s as well. And that, to me, further enhances their ultimate arcs where they essentially become like the other.
Cool stuff.
It was certainly a factor in the practices of the Roman emperors from Constantine and afterward that they would be forced to do things that ran contrary to the teachings of their religion. Up to Theodosius the Great it was standard practice for the emperor to refrain from baptism until his death bed since he would of necessity be giving orders that would cause countless deaths, make war, punish criminals and enforce laws, and otherwise have to do un-Christian things for the good of the state and the citizenry. After Theodosius got baptized early due to a deathly illness that he unexpectedly survived it changed the tradition to one of penances and confessions after particularly brutal or immoral actions by the emperors.
I would tend to argue that, so long as a ruler’s actions are consistent with the law and are done in honest pursuit of the interests of the people, then actions which would be immoral for an individual are permissible to the state. Take killing, for instance. A citizen can’t simply walk up to another citizen and kill him because of some crime. Indeed, in a strict Christian world-view even if the second citizen attempted to kill the first that would not excuse the first killing the second (though a strong argument can be made in favor of killing in defense of others rather than yourself). However, the state is expressly given the power of the sword and therefore is not only allowed but encouraged to punish criminals where private citizens cannot. This principle, that the state and the citizen operate on different moral spheres (under a Christian understanding), would seem to justify actions on the part of the state that would be strictly wrong for an individual acting on his own.
In the particular instance of Dedelin’s actions, given that he is facing an existential threat with nowhere near sufficient resources nor with any confidence in what should be his lawful recourse (namely the marriage treaty), I am willing to excuse quite a bit of apparently shady dealings and violations of the beliefs and mores of the Idrian people, if they are done honestly in pursuit of the welfare of the Idrian people. This is especially true if by so doing he is able to refrain from even worse alternative actions (say, arranging for assassinations, hiring a mercenary army to try open conquest, or otherwise using raw violence and causing widespread misery). In general a lot of western historical doctrine has been very hostile to subtle craftiness and very favorable toward straightforward violence, but the exceptions are telling (Odysseus as a hero is a very early example), and the Romans certainly bowed to the reality of their situation and shifted from brute military force to manipulative politics and diplomacy as more and more external threats arrived to try to wipe them out (and it kept them going for a millenium, often in the face of dangers that overwhelmed all of their neighbors).
@2 Porphyrogenitus
The Roman emperors encouraged the Church to invent extensive and elaborate justifications to explain why “the state” was allowed to murder, torture, and enslave anyone they wanted, while ordinary people were supposed to be good followers of Christ. I personally find it rather convenient that wearing the Emperor’s hat magically frees a man from all Christian teachings, allowing him to ignore the ethical laws of religion in favor of secular laws that he gets to write. Of course, it’s all in the “interests of the people”, except for foreigners, slaves, and anyone the Emperor doesn’t like. Those groups aren’t real people, and Jesus wouldn’t care about them. After all, it’s not like he spent any time hanging out with outcasts, troublemakers, and the poor and despised of society, right?
It’s worth noting that the founder of the Christian religion was legally executed by the command of the local governor, acting in the name and by the authority of the Roman state. I’m not sure Jesus would be particularly happy with the discovery that his supposed followers were torturing and enslaving their fellow Christians while claiming that it was okay because “the state” was doing it. The man who holds the sword or gives the order bears moral responsibility for his choices, regardless of whether he acts as an individual or in the name of some higher power.
Now that I’m done denouncing the Romans for their cruelty and moral hypocrisy, back to Warbreaker!
I’m quite cool with Dedelin breaking the rules. As you say, he’s in a desperate situation, and he’s genuinely trying to avoid war. Unlike the Romans, Idria isn’t trying to conquer or enslave anyone; they just want to be left alone, and Dedelin’s only job is to defend his basically harmless country against a larger, far more powerful nation. It’s unfortunate that he doesn’t know what’s actually going on. Without good information, both the Idrians and Hallendrens are falling into the same trap, succumbing to fears that could lead them into a war that neither party really wants.
We’re meant to assume that Vivenna is incorrect in her assumptions and that in contrast to her sister she would have failed miserably if she had been sent as planned. But is that counterfactual accurate? There are certainly parts of what Siri does that Vivenna wouldn’t be good at, but that doesn’t mean Vivenna couldn’t have succeeded in a different way. I doubt she would have blindly gone along with the priest’s wishes and seduced Susebron, and I don’t see her befriending him either as Siri did (much less falling in love). She’s clever and (eventually) adaptable though, so I don’t see her failing as badly as we’re lead to believe she would.
I don’t think we have to look at kings and rulers to see the division between belief and action. It’s more significant there because they affect multitudes but all of us (well, most of us) make these choices on a nearly daily basis. What we “should” do vs. what we actually do. But what is it a king “should” do?
Perhaps there are no belief systems that can stand up to reality so we rationalize and do “what has to be done” behind the scenes.
If you love one child more than another is it wrong to save the one you love the most? Does it take evil to fight evil?
Vivenna’s assumption that Siri is suffering probably got boosted by Dedelin’s now-revealed certainty that the hostage princess will be killed. Surely people who would readily kill her when the situation called for it wouldn’t be kind and helpful to her in the meantime. That’s me putting thoughts in her mind, though, so I could be wrong.
I am going to be interested in how the next chapter reread goes. When it became obvious what Siri was doing and how she was changing things I began to worry how descriptive Sanderson was going to get – never read a verbal description of such things that comes off well. Thankfully wasn’t an issue later.
“Unless you want to sleep on a mattress Tonk Fah ripped into five pieces,” Denth noted. “He has a thing about mattresses.”
“And chairs,” Tonk Fah said cheerfully, “and tables, and doors, and walls, actually. Oh, and people.”
This re-read was the first time I really noticed the bolded.. shiver.
This is the part that I felt empathy for Vivenna. And though she is not my favorite character, I have to give her credit that she was able to go on despite the dire circumstances she was in, like realizing your Father was not the epitome of virtue like she thought.
@@@@@ several – Excellent comments! I do apologize for taking so long to get into the discussion here; it’s been a busy week. (And I’m not even half-way through Oathbringer part 3…)
Dedelin’s conflict between his roles as father and king is the foundation on which the entire premise of the book rests, so I really should have addressed it more deeply. On the other hand, a couple of you have done a fantastic job addressing it this week! The more I think about it, the more I realize what an awful situation this is for a man of integrity. I have to applaud his self-awareness, realizing that in a crunch he’d probably sacrifice his people for the life of his eldest daughter. At the same time… well, I’m glad I don’t have decisions like that to make.
But regarding the subject of this chapter: what things are appropriate to government that are not to the individual, and perhaps vice versa? Some areas are fairly clear: the state has the right to hold a trial, condemn a criminal, and execute him if appropriate to the crime, while the private citizen does not. The state has (at least some level of) the right to require money from people, in order to fulfill its obligations to those people, while the private citizen may only require payment for services rendered. So far, so good.
But what of the role of the individual in government? When the judge and jury hold a criminal trial, they are individuals acting on behalf of the state – so while a juror might personally desire to see forgiveness for the criminal, he is obligated to evaluate the evidence and the law and determine objective guilt or innocence. The judge must (or at least should) hand down the sentence based on the law, not on his personal feeling about the law or the criminal. And the executioner may be a man who would never harm another person on his own behalf, yet as an agent of the state feel no qualms about carrying out the death sentence legally handed down by the court.
The big question from this chapter, though, hinges less on law and more on belief, and this is where things get harder to define. (Do we know, is there actually a law in Idris against acquiring Breath, or against Awakening? Even if there is, though, the fact that Lemex lives in T’Telir would mean that those laws probably don’t apply to him.) But Vivenna’s question is not whether it was legal for Dedelin, as king, to provide the money for Lemex to buy Breath; the question is whether it was moral. And… I’m not sure I have an answer. My tendency is to think that it was in the gray areas of okay – but I’m not Idrian. I don’t believe in their religion, and I don’t think their beliefs are entirely correct. From the inside, I can’t honestly make a good argument for it, without edging into relativism and compromise.
And after all that, I still don’t have an answer for Vivenna, other than to say that as king, Dedelin chose to do what he could in the interests of protecting his people. I think he did the right thing, but there’s a valid argument that he didn’t.
In the military, you’ll often hear that “we do things that we don’t necessarily like doing or want to do, so that other people don’t have to do them.” The “things” in this case include the reason the military exists: to kill enemies in our nation’s defense. The understanding there is that some times unpleasant things need to be done, and being willing to do those is a sacrifice that must be made. The same is true for governments and their leaders. That’s the conflict for Dedelin. He knows that the price of his position means he should be willing to sacrifice his daughter so that his subjects don’t have to sacrifice their daughters (and sons). He’s not willing, at least not for his eldest daughter, and that bothers him.
@10 Wetlandernw
The problem here is not just that Dedelin would sacrifice his people for his older daughter, but that he wouldn’t do so for his younger daughter. If this revelation is upsetting to Vivenna, imagine how Siri must feel about it. It is one thing to suspect that your father loves you less, and another to have it confirmed beyond any doubt.
The “state” is a legal fiction that we invent to shift responsibility from ourselves to an imaginary legal entity. When a judge sentences a man to death, he is killing him just as surely as if he shot him dead on the spot. A jury is nothing more than a randomly chosen group of people who are making decisions about the life (and sometimes the death) of one of their neighbors. The “state” cannot collect taxes, sent people to jail, or end a human life; only people can do these things, and we are responsible for our choices, no matter what uniform we wear or what oaths we take. If we feel that we are justified in taking money involuntarily for public services, sending people to jail, or going out to fight and kill foreigners, we can do so, but I don’t think we should hide behind a flag.
Dedelin believes that his responsibilities as a ruler should outweigh his responsibilities as a moral human being or a father. In his mind, Idris’s safety is more important than following Austre’s teachings or keeping his youngest daughter safe. He’s willing to betray his religious beliefs and his own child for what he sees as the Greater Good.
BWS does a masterful job of setting up internal conflicts in his characters.
Um…the state is neither imaginary nor fictitious. It is in fact the government of whatever country or region you reside in. It may be somewhat abstract, but it is no more imaginary than the organization I am employed by.
Whether individuals use the government to shift responsibility from themselves or not is an entirely individual thing. A police officer could, for example, do dreadful things that are technically according to the law, and turn around and blame those laws for his actions. Alternatively, the same police officer could enforce the law to the best of his ability, using his own moral guidelines and judgments to protect those properties and rights that the laws he’s enforcing are intended to protect. The difference is entirely dependent upon the individual’s intent.
I’ll simply say that I am glad that I’m not called upon to judge individuals in these type of situations. What an impossible situation – choosing between the lives of your people or your child? May I never be forced into such a choice!